From: Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Two new articles for ACS Chemical Health & Safety are available online.
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 17:49:04 +0000
Reply-To: Monona Rossol <actsnyc**At_Symbol_Here**CS.COM>
Message-ID: 234197240.3102840.1655142544028**At_Symbol_Here**mail.yahoo.com
In-Reply-To <000401d87f3c$32b9c3b0$982d4b10$**At_Symbol_Here**rochester.rr.com>


Thanks, Peter.  I guess it was an easy trick for me to use the ASTM charts to show students and trainees about glove permeation since I've been a voting member of ASTM since the 1980s and was very familiar with them.  Also, every major glove manufacturer had those charts available as posters or flyers and they made great handouts.  I also only used the charts that measure permeation in minutes from 0 to 480 (8 hours).  NEVER use the charts that have the "excellent, good, fair and poor" ratings since those ratings are a combination of permeation and degradation.  Degradation you can see. And in the early stages, some types of degradation (e.g., swelling) may temporarily decrease permeation.  Others may increase it. But in all cases, it doesn't tell you how much time you've got before you worry.

So the only number you want to look at is the minutes it takes to detect the chemical on the other side of the glove membrane.

I remember my issue with IH colleagues at the time was that they tried to set up simpler charts based on glove polymer types.  Since my work as a research chemist for a commercial lab plus the research assistant work I did for years with the U of W, was in polymer chemistry, I was fully aware that one company's nitrile is not another company's nitrile. And the same with all the other polymer types.  There are so many variables in method of manufacture and additives that you just can't do this.  You need to look at the data on the actual gloves you are using.  

My advice to colleges is not to buy from low bid suppliers of gloves, but to form a relationship with a manufacturer or supplier of a particular brand and use their chart with those gloves.  Post the chart right on the lab or studio wall.  And call attention to the tech number on the chart at which you can get advice if you are using a chemical not on the list or a mixture of chemicals.

Monona


-----Original Message-----
From: pzavon**At_Symbol_Here**ROCHESTER.RR.COM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Sent: Mon, Jun 13, 2022 11:42 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Two new articles for ACS Chemical Health & Safety are available online.

No good will lost here.
 
If we don't remember the past as it actually happened, we might as well not remember it at all --- and repeat it, as the aphorism goes.
 
But then, I am an IH and not a Chemist and I am pleased to say that when I was with a university EH&S department in the early 80s we were trying to incorporate knowledge of glove permeation in our support and guidance. 
Peter Zavon, CIH
Penfield, NY

PZAVON**At_Symbol_Here**Rochester.rr.com
 
 
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2022 9:36 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Two new articles for ACS Chemical Health & Safety are available online.
 
Ok, I guess I'll use up some of the good will on this forum, but I can't sit still for another of these articles without a comment.
 
Karen died in 1997 for gosh sakes.  The Right-to-Know laws for the chemical industry had been national for many years before this. Then individual states started passing Hazcom rules for everyone in the early 1980s.  I987, the hazcom standard was national.  So by the early 1980s, even people like me training in the arts were including ASTM F glove permeation charts in PPE training.
 
When Karen Wetterhahn's accident happened, Dartmouth's public position was "who knew?"  I wanted our safety community to firmly say "Everyone knew, and you should have, too."   But most went along with the Dartmouth PR.   Now these new articles have a subtext that Karen's accident enlightened us to a new hazard and things are better because of her.  And they say things like:
 
An extensive investigation by Dartmouth College and the
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in
the spring of 1997 concluded that Karen=E2=80™s disposable latex
gloves were not adequate protection against dimethylmercury.
Glove testing done by a certified laboratory revealed that
dimethylmercury passed unimpeded through most glove
materials. (See Figure 1.)
 
OSHA's test was only confirmative for legal purposes.  An "extensive investigation" was not needed because the ASTM permeation charts already showed that the organic mercury compounds went through most kinds of thick chemical gloves and that the thin mil examining gloves they were using were not recommended for use with chemicals by the manufacturer.  
 
For this reason, the real point that should be made in these articles is that the chemistry departments at Dartmouth and a lot of other universities at the time were just not doing the proper OSHA training on gloves and it took a death and an OSHA citation to wake up the community.  And what an utter waste of a promising life this was.
 
If you want to honor Karen Wetterhahn, write about the need for all university departments that handle chemicals to take some time to re-examine their training programs and to make sure all graduates leave school fully informed about the hazards of their work, the proper precautions, and the laws that apply to them.  Otherwise, we stand a good chance of doing this kind of rationalizing again with other accidents that are not really accidents.
 
I will use only the OSHA citation when I discuss the Wetterhahn tragedy in my training on PPE, and none of this romanticized hype.
 
Monona
 
 
 
   
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Stuart <membership**At_Symbol_Here**DCHAS.ORG>
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Sent: Mon, Jun 13, 2022 6:01 am
Subject: [DCHAS-L] Two new articles for ACS Chemical Health & Safety are available online.
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