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Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] chemical reactivity - hazard evaluation
Date: Friday, January 14, 2022 at 2:57:01 PM
Author: TILAK CHANDRA <0000058f112ac338-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU> 		Next by Date:
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] chemical reactivity - hazard evaluation
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 20:23:04 +0000
Author: lhlatimer**At_Symbol_Here**MINDSPRING.COM

From: Jack Reidy <jreidy2**At_Symbol_Here**STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] chemical reactivity - hazard evaluation
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 20:01:45 +0000
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Message-ID: BYAPR02MB5686B02708874B6D43E5D1AB8C549**At_Symbol_Here**BYAPR02MB5686.namprd02.prod.outlook.com
In-Reply-To


Melinda,

 

For Wiley's Guide, EROS, and I think Fieser and Fieser (I use it the least so I'm least familiar) the safety considerations are explicit, particularly in Wiley's, at least with regard to incompatibility. EROS is good because it has the properties, incompatibilities, and storage concerns at the very top of the entry, then goes into the applications. With March's you are correct that safety usually doesn't get a direct mention. I use March's when a researcher comes to me with a reaction I assess as high hazard and then look for alternative reactions based on the researcher's synthetic goal. Assessing the safety of any alternatives I find is still generally up to me.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jack Reidy (he/him)

Research Safety Specialist, Assistant Chemical Hygiene Officer

Environmental Health & Safety

Stanford University

484 Oak Road, Stanford, CA, 94305

Tel: (650) 497-7614

 

 

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Melinda Box
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 11:21 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] chemical reactivity - hazard evaluation

 

Actually, our central source for this curriculum is the Hill and Finster book, and I have, indeed, taken the DCHAS workshop on chemical reactivity hazards.

 

What I am looking for more specifically is what we would expect researchers to use when we, as safety professionals, direct them to do a hazard analysis. All the sources I have seen so far that predict reactivity are limited to common or commercially used substances.  

 

And actually we have already started searching the publication "Organic Syntheses" for possible assignments for practicing writing safety statements. Unfortunately, the caution statements I've seen so far are limited to particular single reagents rather than to any risk posed by combining reagents.

 

And, yes, I agree that not only is experiential knowledge central and hugely essential in experimental synthesis hazard evaluation, but in my experience, it has been undersold in the training and direction I've received so far from safety professional sources.

 

In any event, I am definitely curious to take a look at those additional references, Wiley's Guide to Chemical Incompatibilities, the Encyclopedia of Reagents for Organic Synthesis, Fieser and Fieser's Reagents for Organic Synthesis, and maybe March's Organic Synthesis. However, I'm concerned that any indications of safety-related issues with reactivity are more implied than explicitly cautioned so would still depend on experiential knowledge.  

 

The tough part with respect to the need for that experiential knowledge is that the curriculum is for a PUI (primarily undergrad institution). I am collaborating with a colleague there, and what that means for the consultant resource is that the instructor herself would be the one accessible authority on the subject. Unfortunately this would, in essence, involve her providing the answers to students for content that she will then grade.

 

Anyway, thanks for all your input,

I really appreciate it,

Melinda Box, MEd, CCHO
Organic Chemistry Lab Supervisor

Chem Dept Safety Officer

North Carolina State University

Department of Chemistry

Fox  328

Tel: (919) 515-2537

 

 

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 10:14 AM Jack Reidy <jreidy2**At_Symbol_Here**stanford.edu> wrote:

I second that, and also recommend Wiley's Guide to Chemical Incompatibilities, the Encyclopedia of Reagents for Organic Synthesis (EROS), and Fieser and Fieser's Reagents for Organic Synthesis. For a compendium of synthetic chemistry information, I like March's Organic Synthesis, though I will confess part of that is A. stubbornness to get my money's worth since I had to buy it in undergrad and B. it's very satisfying to thump a 2000+ page book down on your desk. Joking aside, it has a huge amount of information on both general principles and specific synthetic strategies.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jack Reidy (he/him)

Research Safety Specialist, Assistant Chemical Hygiene Officer

Environmental Health & Safety

Stanford University

484 Oak Road, Stanford, CA, 94305

Tel: (650) 497-7614

 

 

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of lhlatimer**At_Symbol_Here**MINDSPRING.COM
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:02 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] chemical reactivity - hazard evaluation

 

Melinda,

 

While you're waiting to get a taste of Harry's course, you might consider the last 10 years of Organic Syntheses, a series going back over 70 years.  !0-20 years ago they began requiring safety discussions in all the preps accepted.  They can provide your students with real world examples the students are likely to encounter in lab work in synthesis.  

 

Since synthesis is exactly what the word means, many of the compounds and reactions are highly experimental, and may involve issues that have to be recognized and thought about.  For that situation, textbooks and references like Bretherick's are not so useful.  Intuition, hazard appreciation and recognition are invaluable, and are mostly learned with others through discussions.  I encourage you to include researchers at your institution to come and talk about their work making never before made compounds by new methods.

 

I hope it goes well for you.

 

Lee Latimer

A 50+ year organic synthesis chemist.

-----Original Message-----
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Sent: Jan 13, 2022 1:41 PM
To: <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] chemical reactivity - hazard evaluation

 

Melinda

I believe the Division's workshop on the chemical reactivity hazard, presented by Harry Elston, addresses a lot of this.  It is on the schedule for the spring group of workshops.

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

Neal

 

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Melinda Box
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:38 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: [DCHAS-L] chemical reactivity - hazard evaluation

 

Hi, all,

 

I am reaching to get your idea, suggestions, and experiences with regard to reactivity hazard evaluation. I recently discovered how very unhelpful CAMEO and Bretherick's are for evaluating research in organic synthesis or even compounds involved in drug manufacturing and am wondering what other recommendations people might make for resources to include in a hazard evaluation curriculum being designed for undergraduate and graduate Chemistry researchers.

 

Thanks in advance for any input you might offer,

Melinda Box, MEd, CCHO
Organic Chemistry Lab Supervisor

Chem Dept Safety Officer

North Carolina State University

Department of Chemistry

Fox  328

Tel: (919) 515-2537

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