All,

Please understand that there are hundreds of us standing on the sidelines
taking in this conversation. The passion on all sides is visceral, but let
us not try to talk over each other or fully discount those with valid
points on both sides. Clearly there are some entries with a political bend
or based upon strictly personal belief, not in demonstrated science. I,
with others, are likely to discount those entries.

That said, according to discussion threads, the issue of herd immunity
would seemingly be based largely, but not wholly, on natural infection.
Reporting suggests the immunity, at from least natural infection, may be
short-lived. Cases of reinfection or virus mutation may be taking place
after several months of a previously diagnosed infection and having
developed antibodies to the virus. The lifespan of the antibodies is
largely unknown at this time. If the lifetime of the antibodies is indeed
only a matter of months and a population's infection rate is cyclical, we
may need to throw out the concept of natural infection contributing
significantly to the herd infection, To that end, artificially derived
immunizations would be necessarily become the primary mechanism for herd
immunity.

In the meantime, use of facial coverings and social distancing, by any
measure, are having a positive effect. Using no respiratory protection
method and poor social distancing is not contributing to the well-being of
the whole and does exacerbate the problem. Those who decide against making
use of a demonstrated therapy, may do so not only at their own peril, but
present risk to those whose physical infirmities prohibit them from taking
advantage of a therapy when it does become available. One should feel sorry
for those who feel no responsibility for others and only harm themselves as
people of reason will tend their keep distance from them.
[My personal 2 cents.]

Kindness is contagious (hopefully more than COVID-19!)
-Kevin

************************************************************
Kevin J. Beltis
e-mail: beltis.k**At_Symbol_Here**tiaxllc.com

From: "Yaritza Brinker"
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Date: 10/14/2020 09:16 AM
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings
Sent by: "ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety"

Scientific terms have a definition. When popular media hijacks a scientific
term, we should do our best to stick to the actual definition and educate
the public. Otherwise, we cannot communicate effectively. Instead we end-up
in long debates over who is right, wrong, and righteous. Walking around in
circles over semantics.

Thank you,

Yaritza Brinker
260.827.5402

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety On
Behalf Of Reinhardt, Peter
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 7:04 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

** External Email **
I agree that herd immunity via widespread vaccination is an important
public health goal.

In this tread and in the popular press, the advocates of ‰??heard immunity‰??
are using the term to mean spread of the infection through the unvaccinated
population without implementing safeguards such as masking and distancing.
This is how the authors in the Nature paper I cited explained heard
immunity.

Pete

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety on
behalf of Yaritza Brinker
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety >
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 5:15 AM
To: "DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU"
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

I think it‰??s gravely unethical to argue against herd immunity. Before you
all lynch me‰?| please put down your proverbial pitchforks and indulge me for
a bit.

Vocabulary is important in all discussions. Especially true in hot-button
ones.

From the CDC Glossary available at
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/terms/glossary.html

Community immunity: A situation in which a sufficient proportion of a
population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination
and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person
unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those
with chronic illnesses) are offered some protection because the
disease has little opportunity to spread within the community. Also
known as herd immunity.

So, I‰??ll say it again‰?| I think it‰??s gravely unethical to argue against herd
immunity.

The following article from Johns Hopkins argues about how best to achieve
herd immunity. That IS the actual issue facing the nation.
https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/achieving-herd-immunity-with-covid19.html

Thank you,

Yaritza Brinker
260.827.5402

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety On
Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 2:25 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

** External Email **
Absolutely unethical. And I will be looking forward to the Disney stats
this winter because of the indoor ventilation and sanitizing issues. We
know how to make it work indoors, but now we know the dang bug can last 28
days on a hard surface. Oy. Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: Reinhardt, Peter
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Sent: Tue, Oct 13, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings
I think it is unethical to advocate herd immunity because it would mean
500,000‰??2,100,000 preventable deaths in the U.S.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-00451-5

As safety professionals and human beings, we should support the use of
simple safety measures (masks, distancing) to prevent even one death.
That‰??s ethics 101.

Regarding Disney World, being outdoors is a terrific mitigation measure for
aerosol transmission. Winter will be challenge because we are indoors and
the relative humidity is lower.

Pete Reinhardt, Yale EHS

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety on
behalf of Rob Torkei
Reply-To: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety >
Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 11:46 AM
To: "DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU"
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

Interesting article that addresses cultural differences:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/2020/10/12/why-half-a-million-americans-will-die-from-covid-19/#5fc3fb8d1736

I had a discussion with a friend who believes masks don‰??t stop the spread
and that full-on herd immunity is the way to go. He pointed out the lack of
super spreading at Disney World as an example of concerns being overblown:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/business/disney-world-coronavirus.html
(although there are some accusations of coverup and concerns about lack of
contract tracing to people‰??s home states).

When I looked into the Disney thing further, I was rather astonished:
https://www.disneytouristblog.com/faq-guide-face-masks-disney-world/
Disney has really tough mask rules with really high compliance. In other
words, my friend‰??s example strongly supported my contentions about mask
usage, not his. But he didn‰??t want to discuss it after I pointed this out.

Rob Toreki

======================================================
Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names
you know and trust. Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com
esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012

On Oct 13, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Yaritza Brinker
wrote:

I think there are differences of opinion on how to best achieve heard
immunity. Some think it‰??s best to do so by vaccination and, in the
meantime, we all hide from the virus. Some think it‰??s best to expose
those who are most likely to survive the virus, and hide those who
are most likely to die from it.

These are simply two schools of thought. We should refrain from
accusing each ‰??camp‰?? of being unethical or uncaring.. Those types of
accusations keep us from having an honest discussion.

This pattern of behavior has taken hold of our society. It has given
birth to the ‰??silent majority‰??. It needs to stop.

Thank you,

Yaritza Brinker
260.827.5402

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <
DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU> On Behalf Of Ernest Lippert
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 1:05 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

** External Email **
It is interesting to reflect on how our actions affect others and,
perhaps, ourselves? Remember that ethics is concerned with our
correct behavior in a structured society. And isn‰??t it a prime
directive of safety culture to ensure that others don‰??t get hurt?
Ernie Lippert

From: "ILPI Support"
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 11:39 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**Princeton.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Melbourne, Victoria, AU - Facial Coverings

I wasn‰??t going to wade into this, but since we are getting into
various analogies.

Seat belts protect more than the individual. They protect EMS workers
who won‰??t have to experience the PTSD trauma of unnecessarily
scraping someone‰??s brain off the pavement. They protect my insurance
rates so that someone who is ejected from their vehicle doesn‰??t end
up needing millions of dollars of medical and rehabilitative care.
They protect family members who won‰??t lose their breadwinner or have
to declare bankruptcy to pay their medical bills.

Here are two more analogies:

1. I‰??m a good driver. I haven‰??t had an at-fault accident. In theory
(unless I live in a no-fault state), I don‰??t need auto insurance
because my risk of an at-fault accident is very low and if I did
cause one I have financial resources to cover the damage to another
car or person. However, the state (or State, depending on your
worldview, I suppose) says I must have insurance in order to operate
a motor vehicle on public roads. Why? To protect the other driver
if I do cause an accident. By happenstance, that same
government-mandated protection also covers/protects me.

2. I am amused by the small but vocal cadre who see modest mask
requirements as a totalitarian abomination and at the same time
fervently support leaders who call the press the enemy of the people,
disparage and dismiss science, deliberately sow false distrust of our
election system, and refuse to commit to a peaceful transfer of
power. It‰??s like worrying about a hangnail when you have a compound
fracture of the femur and are hours away from the nearest hospital.

It‰??s a frickin‰?? piece of cloth, not a diving helmet or spiked
chastity belt. Tens of millions of workers across the world wear
masks all day long (medical, industrial, construction). It‰??s trivial
and if everyone did it for a couple weeks most of this goes away.
Two words: New Zealand. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-54260925

Rob Toreki

======================================================
Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names
you know and trust. Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com
esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412
Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012

On Oct 11, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Ray Cook
wrote:

Just my thoughts on this, not here to debate. I respect you all
have your own opinions.

The first line of your response Monona defines the problem with
this whole mask endeavor (..for my own good). As someone who
has spent a career specifying personal protective equipment, I
cannot follow the concept of PPE that must be worn by one
individual to protect someone else. By definition, it is
‰??personal‰?? protection. I think most people are more than
willing to do something for ‰??their own good.‰?? If I am concerned
about getting exposed to an airborne contaminant, I can wear an
N100 respirator and at least feel like I am doing something to
protect myself. However, wearing a surgical mask or whatever,
is not for my own good. It is supposedly to protect everyone
else, which I don‰??t recall being my responsibility (except in a
professional capacity). Last I saw, many jurisdictions don‰??t
want you to protect yourself by wearing a real respirator with
an exhalation valve as you then become a ‰??threat‰?? to others.
(So protecting self is bad, protecting others is your duty).

Wearing a seat belt protects me. Forcing you to wear one to
protect me does not, nor does it make sense. Not the same, but
you see my point. This virus is not a plague. People in high
risk groups SHOULD protect themselves using appropriate
measures. I am not clear at all on the logic of how
responsibility became transferred from protecting yourself
(especially the vulnerable) to requiring all other individuals
to submit to doing something undesirable/uncomfortable to
theoretically protect other people, relying on the possibility
that it may have some positive effect on preventing the spread
of a 95-99 % survivable influenza. Not a strong driver here..

I do disagree with your statement that by not wearing a mask
people are assaulting others. Normal life does not involve
wearing a mask. Never has. Living life in fear of a largely
survivable disease is unnecessary, and better protection is
available for those who need it. I have more faith in our
immune system than govts do.

Have a good week!

Regards,

Ray Cook, MS, CIH 2000-2016
CSP ret.
ApexHSE.com
832-477-4454
I Cor 1:18
In omnia paratus
Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 11, 2020, at 5:18 AM, Monona Rossol <
0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**lists.princeton.edu>
wrote:

?
If big brother is sane and asking for me to do things for
my own good, I have no problem. And actually, the Oz big
brother is only a threat to people who aren't doing what
good practice and common sense dictates. Claiming the
right to harm others by imprudent behavior in this
pandemic is not freedom, it's assault.

I think the problem is you might think the masks that the
Australians are talking about need fit testing. That's
not what they mean. They just mean that they fit tight
to the face leaving no obvious gaps. So surgical masks
and well-made cloth masks are fine. And they include
direction for making a good mask.

They also require it cover both the nose and the mouth.
I'd like to see the Oz Big Brother working over here --
maybe right in my neighborhood..

Monona

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