The incident that sparked the law suit at the beginning of this discussion was in a public school. Federal OSHA has NO jurisdiction over public schools, just as it lacks jurisdiction over any agency of state, county or municipal government. About half the states run their own approved OSHA programs, and THOSE programs do have jurisdiction over public schools and the like, as far as employee safety goes (nothing about student safety). But each such program is slightly different, even though they are all required to be "equivalent to" Federal OSHA in the level of safety they provide. But remember that half the states simply have none of that.
I suppose the state OSHA program in California or Oregon MIGHT investigate a student injury in a secondary school, but I would not be surprised to see that any such program routinely does not do that sort of thing.
Peter Zavon, CIH
Penfield, NY
PZAVON**At_Symbol_Here**Rochester.rr.com
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Harold Ingmire
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:59 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo
From an earlier post, the issue of OSHA covering employees and not students (unless they are "working") is accurate, but the hazards to the teachers and other hazards are real. Good insight I hope for our kids (or grandkids) something can happen.
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Jeff Tenney
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 10:32 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo
Please remember under OHSA, 29CFR1910 (section 5 a), OSHA have the power to pursue penalties if the employer, school, does not supply a place free of recognized hazards. I would say an uncontrolled open flame would qualify. Not having an eyewash when handling caustics, could be another fineable offense. There are rules in place but the employers lack the knowledge to make sure they are being enforced and/or protections are in place.
This biggest problem has always been training and education. It would be nice if the ACS would set up a free program (maybe a small fee like 20 dollars a year) for school systems or educators to have access to training material when it comes to demos. (I know am pushing it to someone else to do) That would address how to perform the experiment safely, high quality videos of those that cannot be done safely in most high school chemistry labs. We do have a division of chemical education.
If OSHA would just fine one of these incidents then maybe that would wake some systems up to getting some training for the teacher of at least forcing a review of the demo before it is performed to see how safe it is.
Jeff
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Thank you - very interesting problems in industries I am not familiar with (arts). Maybe the liability insurance companies for schools should step up a bit.
From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 9:21 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo
You have never stumbled across statutes specific to education under OSHA because there aren't any.
EPA rules are usually industry- or process-specific and they have a bunch of rules specific to education.
But OSHA just divides their standards between Construction and General Industry (not counting Maritime). School employees do work that is usually under General Industry standards unless those employees are engaged in defined construction activities such as renovating, painting or decorating.
It's a rather clumsy system actually. And the people I deal with in both education and the theatrical and film industries have great difficulty in accepting that they are not "special." They are just another ordinary industry under OSHA and the rules all apply to them. They have trouble seeing the front lip of the stage as a fall hazard under General Industry and the construction of a set as coming under the Construction standards. Or they have difficulty understanding that the workers are under the Construction standards while building the set, but they have to design and build the set to meet General Industry safety standards because the Actors, set dressers, etc., who will access the set are General Industry workers.
So to with education. Most of the work comes under General Industry such as hazcom or lab standard, PPE, materials handling, etc. And there are the students. Young students do not come under OSHA so that leaves some interesting gaps filled usually by strict liability. College and/or grad students in some schools are under workers comp and OSHA, but often are not, again leaving it to liability.
But in theater and film, we have paid "workers" who are infants, young children and/or older children. Some of the OSHA rules designed for adults are applied to them and that is often a big problem for us, especially the PELs.
I can think of better ways to do this, but I've noticed no one has put me in charge.
-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Ingmire <hingmire**At_Symbol_Here**WHIPMIX.COM>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Tue, Oct 1, 2019 8:36 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] [EXT] Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo
Are there any regulatory standards for education processes on safety? I have dealt with OSHA and DOT for decades, but never stumbled across statutes covering education specifically.
I've heard arguments to the contrary...
Sent from my iPhone - please excuse any typos
Thank you, Peter, for stating the best solution for proper demonstrations: proper preparation and the knowledge of what you are doing and what all the hazards are. In my more than 20 years of teaching teachers how to do chemical demonstrations, I have always stressed safety.
The videos on flame jetting are excellent. I fully support the use of flame arresters on containers of flammable liquids. We learned about that in the Baker Safety Course in 1978. But flame arresters have not been standard on those containers, even with the knowledge of the safety factor. J. T. Baker never put them on their 4 L bottles of those liquids.
For science teachers doing demonstrations with flammable liquids, not only are there not flame arresters on their containers of flammable liquids, but some of these teachers bring large containers of those liquids into their classrooms or lecture halls. That's just asking for a possible accident. Even with the proper knowledge, you can't fix stupid.
We went through the pros and mostly cons of the rainbow flame demonstration on this listserve over a year ago. Yes, you can do a rainbow flame demonstration! Yes, there are alternatives, but the rainbow demo is impressive as one can observe the colors side-by-side.
As a career chemistry teacher and demonstrator, I vigorously oppose the banning of what may be a very good demonstration and the banning of methanol and other alcohols or flammable solvents, even if those liquids are used for a demonstration where no flames are used. I prefer to see the banning of ignorant invidivuals who don't know what they are doing or what they are working with. Administrators should be asking their science teachers about their training and experience in the proper presentation of demonstrations. A response from a teacher such as "I've never had a problem with this before" is totally unacceptable.
The proper procedure for any demonstration is test it in advance in a safe area. Then, premeasure the materials before the demonstration. Not every compound being used, such as sodium bicarbonate, needs to be premeasured, but they should all be in small sized labeled containers for dispensing. Flammable liquids and corrosives must definitely be premeasured. If the presenter thinks that the demonstration is too small for good audience visibility, project it onto a screen. (Many schools have document cameras in classrooms which can be used.) Bigger is NOT better.
The demonstration should be set up in the proper venue. That means good ventilation, safe surfaces for the demonstration or a safe cover for that surface, means to safely contain the reactions, overflow and splashing, appropriate safety shields, fire extinguisher, and proper PPE. The audience must be at a safe distance from the demonstration. If there is any possibility of liquids or particulaes escaping toward the audience, then safety eyeware is mandatory.
Once the demonstration is assembled, all remaining chemicals and equipment must be removed from the immediate vicinity before initiateing it..
Under no circumstances should a demonstration be "refueled" to prolong it. If the presenter wants the audience to see it again, remove the spent demonstration materials and set up a fresh demonstration. Follow the proper procedures and do the demonstration again.
There are safety guideline for demonstrations and presentations, but they do not guide the presenter in the safe way to perform the demonstrations. They do not provide any safer and effective alternatives, such as substituting ethanol for methanol in the rainbow flame demonstration.
The rainbow flame demonstration is a way to show the range of colors of different chemical salts. It is not an effective demonstration to allow students to use small spectroscopes to observe spectral lines of those metal elements - the flames do not always last long enough to view the spectra. The alternative methods using wood splints, or similar apparatus, are safe for individual student groups to do in a proper laboratory setting.
In some cases, colored flames produced by these alternative methods, are not bright enough or persist long enough to observe spectral lines. For those few elements, the instructor can demonstrate those colors by aspirating particulates of the salts through a Bunsen burner flame. My procedure for doing this is on my web site at http://www.chymist.com/Colored%20flames.pdf (Some photographs of the colored flames are included.)
A good demonstration may provide some entertainment value, but it must provide educational value. That educational value may be provided by follow-up experiements in a laboratory.
In my almost 50 years of presenting demonstrations, I have maintained a 100% safety record. That does not mean that something won't go wrong, accidents do happen. In my personal experience, no one has been harmed and nothing has suffered severe damage.
_________________________________________________________________________
David A. Katz
Chemist, Educator, Expert Demonstrator, Science Communicator, and Consultant
Programs and workshops for teachers, schools, museums, and the public
5003 Canby Dr. * Wilmington, DE 19808-1102 * USA
voice/fax: (302) 509-3282 * email: dakatz45**At_Symbol_Here**msn.com
Visit my web site: http://www.chymist.com
_________________________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2019 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Letter to the National PTA regarding the rainbow flame demo
One thing I notice about this letter and many other comments about this demonstration directed to educators is the frequent absence of guidance on how to perform it more safely, or on alternative, less hazardous, demonstrations that would illustrate the same principles.
In my experience, it is usually more effective to provide alternatives than to simply say "don't do that."
Decades ago, my then boss at Princeton University used to say to faculty members something along the lines of "I am not telling you that you can't to that; I am telling you that you can't do it in the way you have been accustomed to doing it."
(on location in Cincinnati, OH)
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