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Previous by Date: Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] HCl concentration and hazard Date: Monday, February 27, 2017 at 7:30:44 PM Author: Michael <mabuczynski**At_Symbol_Here**HOTMAIL.COM> |
Next by Date: Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] HCl concentration and hazard Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:00:55 -0500 Author: Monona Rossol |
Monica:
I hope I get to meet your husband some day. he and I could share an order of jalapeno poppers.
Jim Tarr
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> On February 27, 2017 at 4:11 PM Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU> wrote:
>
>
> I don't want to ban anything. All that does is allow industry to substitute something worse
>
> What I want is for the terminology to be used correctly. Acetic acid is a corrosive. Concentrated or not, acetic acid is and always will be a corrosive. They can say vinegar is a very dilute, delicious, salad-enhancing corrosive, but diluting HAc doesn't change the nature of how it interacts with human tissue. It only changes the speed of the reaction.
>
>
> It's like saying that the HCl in your stomach is only an irritant. It is a corrosive that is held in check by a very creative stomach lining. But HCl is not an irritant at any concentration.
>
>
> Real irritants like pepper, jalapeno, and a number of other substances plants have developed to give insect pests a slap upside the head are very unique. They cause a temporary reaction with human tissue that is attention-getting but reversible. Some people think irritants also are good to eat. They are strange people like my husband who thinks pain is a flavor.
>
>
>
>
> Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist
> President: Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.
> Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE
> 181 Thompson St., #23
> New York, NY 10012 212-777-0062
> actsnyc**At_Symbol_Here**cs.com www.artscraftstheatersafety.org
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zack Mansdorf
> To: DCHAS-L
> Sent: Mon, Feb 27, 2017 5:48 pm
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] HCl concentration and hazard
>
>
>
> Monona:
>
> I got a very good laugh at your analogy. I immediately thought of Gelifte fish, but the more accurate description would be (from my wife's Swedish heritage) Lutefisk. This is where the white fish is soaked in lye for a couple of days. Yes-even more disgusting than it sounds (at least for me).
>
> Back to the analogy. Using your logic, vinegar should be banned by the EPA or OSHA or Good Housekeeping or someone.
>
> Where concentration does count (I know my friend Alan will weigh in on this) is that for some caustics a dilute concentration is more damaging to the eyes since it is more soluble.
>
> Bottom line-concentration does count. More is worser-[sic] (usually), especially if it is fuming (not as in angry).
>
> Anyway‰?|‰?|‰?|.always enjoy your take on things Monona. As they say in your business, 'Rock On'.
>
> Regards,
>
> Zack
> S.Z. Mansdorf, PhD, CIH, CSP, QEP
> Consultant in EHS and Sustainability
> 7184 Via Palomar
> Boca Raton, FL 33433
> 561-212-7288
>
>
>
> From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 3:32 PM
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] HCl concentration and hazard
>
> It irks me that the the word "irritation" was used for a dilute form of HCl. If you look up the toxicological definition, an irritant is a chemical that can cause redness, swelling and pain that is reversible. The example is jalapeno. Instead, the term is wrongly and commonly applied to dilute corrosives.
>
>
>
> A corrosive is trying to convert you into liquid mush. It can do it fast at high concentrations and much slower at low concentrations. But the damage it does at either concentration is not strictly reversible. The light damage to skin cells from a dilute corrosive just heals fast as damaged skin cells quickly replace themselves.
>
>
>
> The true irritant doesn't damage skin cells and can't liquify you at any concentration -- although Santa Fe green sauce may be an exception.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist
>
> President: Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.
>
> Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE
>
> 181 Thompson St., #23
>
> New York, NY 10012 212-777-0062
>
> actsnyc**At_Symbol_Here**cs.com www.artscraftstheatersafety.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jarral Ryter
> To: DCHAS-L
> Sent: Mon, Feb 27, 2017 1:31 pm
> Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] HCl concentration and hazard
>
> Interesting side note:
>
> Toilet bowl cleaner is 9% HCl and will burn your bum. A friend sat on some the custodians left on the seat. She wasn't happy.
>
> Hmm. If they have goggles and wash up spills I don't think it is going to hurt anyone. If you spilled some on a tender area and didn't wash it off on the other hand......
>
> Jarral Ryter
> Senior Chemistry Lecturer/Lab and Safety Manager
> Western State Colorado University
>
> 970.943.2875
> western.edu
> jryter**At_Symbol_Here**western.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU] On Behalf Of Stuart, Ralph
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 9:11 AM
> To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
> Subject: [DCHAS-L] HCl concentration and hazard
>
> Over the weekend, several of us attended a workshop to discuss chemical hazard assessment needs with high school teachers. As the example activity to assess the hazards of, we used the "Hollow Penny" activity described at http://zushma.com/images/Hollow_Penny_Activity.pdf
>
> This protocol calls for 6M HCl to be used to digest the zinc interior of the penny. One of the teachers commented that they are uncomfortable with using HCl this concentrated with the teen age students she oversees, so she uses 3 M HCl and lets the penny digest over the weekend so there's enough time to do the job. Other teachers use the 6 M HCl in a lab setting (i.e. students do the hands on work), whereas others said that they did this only as a demo (i.e. the teacher was the only person who touched the acid until the hollow penny is decontaminated). Some teachers avoided this activity altogether. Interestingly, the SDS's we found on the web for HCl indicated that any concentration above 0.1 M has both the corrosive and irritant designations. The 0.1 M SDS I found showed only an irritant designation.
>
> We are not second guessing anyone's professional judgement as to which option they chose. Previous discussion that day made it clear that factors such as 1) the facilities and equipment available, 2) the nature of the students involved in the class and 3) the availability of PPE all made a difference in what people decided to do. These factors vary widely from school to school.
>
> There are three questions we'd like the list's thoughts on:
> - Is there a significant hazard difference between 6 M and 3 M HCl in the high school lab setting?
> - How would you determine this difference from GHS (or other) information available for these solutions?
> - Does the choice of which approach (lab, demo, avoid the activity) impact the educational value of the class?
>
> Thanks for any help with this.
>
> - Ralph
>
> Ralph Stuart, CIH, CCHO
> Environmental Safety Manager
> Keene State College
> 603 358-2859
>
> ralph.stuart**At_Symbol_Here**keene.edu
>
> ---
> This e-mail is from DCHAS-L, the e-mail list of the ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety.
> For more information about the list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
>
> ---
> This e-mail is from DCHAS-L, the e-mail list of the ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety.
> For more information about the list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
>
>
>
> --- This e-mail is from DCHAS-L, the e-mail list of the ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety. For more information about the list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
> ---This e-mail is from DCHAS-L, the e-mail list of the ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety.For more information about the list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
>
>
>
> ---
> This e-mail is from DCHAS-L, the e-mail list of the ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety.
> For more information about the list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org
This e-mail is from DCHAS-L, the e-mail list of the ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety.
For more information about the list, contact the Divisional secretary at secretary**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org