This just illustrates the point. If no-one who reads the rules has any clue what the rules say, then the rules are wrong....

I would call research after Ph.D. "post-doctoral," not post-grad. Most post-PhD researchers are "post-doc's" or PRFs or PRAs.

"Graduation" has traditionally been the event at which you receive an undergraduate degree. Although now-a-days students "graduate" from high school, and of course MScs and PhDs graduate too, so perhaps the term is simply too ambiguous to have any use. This definition does however lead to the terms "post-graduate" (after graduation) so therefore a post-grad student is one working towards an advanced degree such as MSc or PhD; this is the usual meaning of the phrase, at least.

With that also comes the term "under-grad," meaning below graduation. Undergraduates are working towards graduation.

So I would still argue that there are 3 major classes of researcher: under-graduate, graduate, and post-doctoral. It would then only make sense that the terms "graduate research" and so on are what is done by a "graduate researcher", and so forth.

I would suggest still that there is a huge need to clarify the terms that NFPA has used.

Best,
Paul
On Fri, 21 Mar 2014 09:08:15 -0500
Naween Dahal wrote:
> Post- graduate research in my understanding is a research performed after
> PhD degree and graduate research is a research usually performed during
> Masters or PhD degree!
> Naween Dahal
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Paul Harrison <
> pharriso**At_Symbol_Here**univmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>
> > I'm not an expert, but I would guess that, since "post-graduate research"
> > means research by students who have a Bachelors degree, "graduate research"
> > actually means research by students who do not, i.e. those working towards
> > a Bachelor's degree. There are many such situations, such as students
> > conducting senior thesis work.
> >
> > Thus, the distinction is between "research" and "instructional" with the
> > latter including standard experiments conducted by many students in an
> > allotted place and a defined time. Normally that would apply to
> > undergraduates, but I'm sure that there are also graduate courses in that
> > category, professional schools and the like.
> >
> > However, what is much less clear is what happens when the lab component of
> > a course has a research element (as they all really should...). A simple
> > example: students prepare a library of related compounds, then each is
> > tested in a bio-assay. Is that research or teaching? In fact it is of
> > course both.
> >
> > I would argue that the NFPA should review their policy.... and to be more
> > general and frank, I would also argue that policy-makers should find out
> > what their proposed policy will apply to in real life before they start
> > writing. But that would be novel....
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:50:29 -0400
> > CHeadPE**At_Symbol_Here**AOL.COM wrote:
> > > I have a question regarding NFPA 45. I am wondering how undergraduate
> > > research labs fit into the definition of Instructional laboratory
> > units. As
> > > defined in the 2011 version of NFPA:
> > >
> > >
> > > "used for education past the 12th grade and before post-college
> > > graduate-level instruction for the purposes of instruction of six or
> > more persons for
> > > four or more hours per day or more than 12 hours per week. Experiments
> > > and tests conducted in instructional lab units are under the direct
> > > supervision of an instructor. Lab units used for graduate or
> > post-graduate research
> > > are not to be considered instructional lab units."
> > > The definition specifically excludes graduate and post-graduate research.
> > > Why doesn't it exclude "undergrad research" too? This would be
> > > situations where the instructor is not always present, but labs where
> > several
> > > undergraduate students are working at the same time.
> > > Thank you.
> > > Charlotte J. Head, P.E.
> > >
> > > industrial environmental consultant
> > > North Kingstown, RI 02852
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 03/19/2014 1:13:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > bfoster**At_Symbol_Here**WVU.EDU writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan referenced NFPA 45 in his recent email.
> > > I would like to mention that NFPA 45: Standard on Fire Protection for
> > > Laboratories Using Chemicals (current edition: 2011) is in the process of
> > > revision. The next edition is scheduled for 2015.
> > > (I am a member of the 45 Technical Committee.)
> > > Barbara L. Foster
> > > Director of Laboratory Safety
> > > Eberly College of Arts and Sciences
> > > West Virginia University
> > > 304-293-2729 (desk)
> > > 304-276-0099 (mobile)
> > > From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:dchas-l**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of Daniel Crowl
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 12:13 PM
> > > To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**MED.CORNELL.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Ductless fumehoods or Not.
> > >
> > >
> > > Look at this NIH policy document on ductless hoods. It is from 2005.
> > > That is where I got the NFPA reference for NFPA 45. It is section
> > 6.4.1.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.ors.od.nih.gov/sr/dohs/Documents/DOHS%20Ductless%20Fume%20Hoods%2
> > > 0Review_2007.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan Crowl
> > >
> > > Michigan Tech
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Richard W. Denton <_rwdenton3**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com_
> > > (mailto:rwdenton3**At_Symbol_Here**gmail.com) > wrote:
> > > Hi everyone:
> > > I was asked by my department to assist in deciding whether to purchase
> > > ductless fumehoods for our undergraduate chemistry labs. We are
> > planning to
> > > use these for flammable solvents, and reactions involving HCl and NaOH.
> > > These hoods will be used by undergraduates for research also. Any
> > input on
> > > the safety issues involved with these equipments versus the regular
> > hoods
> > > would be appreciated.
> > > -Richard (CHO)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Paul Harrison
> > Associate Professor of Chemistry
> > Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology
> > McMaster University
> > 1280 Main St. W., Hamilton, ON, L8S 4M1, Canada
> > Phone: (905)525-9140 ext. 27290; FAX: (905)522-2509
> >
> > If you have an accommodation need for a planned meeting, please e-mail me
> > directly and I will do my best to make appropriate arrangements. Should
> > you require any materials sent via this e-mail address in an
> > alternate/accessible format, please let me know
> >
> >

Paul Harrison
Associate Professor of Chemistry
Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology
McMaster University
1280 Main St. W., Hamilton, ON, L8S 4M1, Canada
Phone: (905)525-9140 ext. 27290; FAX: (905)522-2509

If you have an accommodation need for a planned meeting, please e-mail me directly and I will do my best to make appropriate arrangements. Should you require any materials sent via this e-mail address in an alternate/accessible format, please let me know

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