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Previous by Date: Subject: Re: New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs Perspective)" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 13:24:49 -0800 Author: "Russell Vernon, Ph.D." |
Next by Date: Subject: Re: New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs Perspective)" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:27:43 -0500 Author: ILPI |
Neal and Rob, As a semiconductor process engineer for 40+ years, I must say I agree with Neal on this one. The IC industry has safely used both acidic and basic piranha at temperature of 100-150 C. with very few significant incidents in the lab. The few times we have had problems with it were due to improper disposal (failing to wait for it to cool properly) of the waste solution into improper plastic waste containers with tight lids...Piranha can be managed safely if people are properly trained to assess the risks in their use/waste procedures and demand accountability of themselves and those around them. David -----Original Message----- From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] On Behalf Of NEAL LANGERMAN Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:44 PM To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs Perspective)" Rob - I really hate to disagree with you, but you are wrong. Piranha has been used since the 60's in both semiconductor R&D and production with very few problems. The issue is NOT the hazard, which you are addressing, but the risk, which must be managed. So, if the PI makes the case for using "tetra-ethyl-death", it is our job to help make it happen safely. I cannot buy into telling a PI (I was one for 15 years) "you cannot do that" Sorry, even though I tend to agree with most of your postings, you are wrong here. nl ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- -------- The information contained in this message is privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. =A0 ACSafety has a new address: NEAL LANGERMAN ADVANCED CHEMICAL SAFETY, Inc. PO Box 152329 SAN DIEGO CA 92195 011(619) 990-4908 (phone, 24/7) www.chemical-safety.com We no longer support FAX. Please contact me before sending any packages or courier delivery. The address for those items is: 5340 Caminito Cachorro San Diego CA 92105 -----Original Message----- From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] On Behalf Of ILPI Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 4:40 PM To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs Perspective)" No matter how good an SOP you make, piranha is just too dangerous to use. Its use should be discouraged, if not banned. The firsthand account I referenced in my earlier response in this thread (http://yarchive.net/chem/piranha_solution.html ) highlights the issue - no matter how well prepared you are, no matter how good the procedures, it takes just ONE **minor** slip with piranha and you could be severely injured or die. Period. There is no redundant safety system, there is no PPE that can protect you from that kind of explosion, there is NO margin for error. Make a simple mistake like not seeing 20 mL of nearly invisible acetone in the receiving flask (or assume it's water, piranha solution etc.) and boom. In the academic setting, we are already painfully aware of what engrained laboratory culture/procedures can lead to (the UCLA incident being just one). All it takes is one person not remembering to tell the new guy about keeping acetone away, one language/comprehension issue, or one person thinking about the upcoming Superbowl party, and the incident I described will happen all over again. It is insane to use such a hazardous material for cleaning glassware - a routine task during which people often let their guards down because they are done their "dangerous" experiment. Cleaning glassware - we are not talking about some irreplaceable step in the synthetic method to make taxol or something here. Yes, piranha cleans great, but there are equally great and ***far*** safer alternatives. Using piranha is like insisting on using nitroglycerin instead of C-4. I've used 500 mL bottles of t-butyllithium, pure SiF4, phosgene, things that will crosslink your DNA, boiling benze extractions, you name it. I've seen explosions, fires, injuries in the lab. I once held a 30 ml vial of diethylzinc that started spurting flames and there is absolutely NOTHING in the lab that I have encountered that scares me more than piranha solution. I wish we had cell phone cameras back when I saw witnessed that piranha incident, because you would never believe that a person could lose that much blood in five seconds. It was simply unbelievable how large a pool we encountered when we opened the door to that lab. Yes, explosions are always a risk in the lab, but to *deliberately* invite them in order to clean glassware is, again, insane. Rob "tell me what you really think about piranha" Toreki ========================= ========================= ==== Safety Emporium - Lab & Safety Supplies featuring brand names you know and trust. Visit us at http://www.SafetyEmporium.com esales**At_Symbol_Here**safetyemporium.com or toll-free: (866) 326-5412 Fax: (856) 553-6154, PO Box 1003, Blackwood, NJ 08012 On Jan 18, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Harvey, Doug wrote: > The video references the EH&S SOP from the outset of the scene (http://blink.ucsd.edu/safety/research-lab/chemical/specific/piranha.html > ) and it is a discussion not the actual transfer. > > Douglas Harvey > Environment, Health & Safety, CCHO > Chemical Safety Officer > University of California, San Diego > Office phone: (858) 822-1579 > Cell phone: (858) 583-3257 > Email: daharvey**At_Symbol_Here**ucsd.edu > Mail code: 0089 > > From: DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] On > Behalf Of Leslie Coop > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:34 PM > To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU > Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] New Video from UCSD "A Day in the Lab (A PIs > Perspective)" > > It definitely has some terrific examples. I agree about the safety > goggles. The hood sashes open side to side (especially with the > piranha solution) is also disturbing. > > Leslie > > > > -- > Leslie B. Coop, CCHO | Lab Manager, Safety Coordinator | Chemistry > Department > University of Arkansas at Little Rock | 2801 S. University Ave. | > Little Rock, AR 72204 > 501-569-3192 (o) | 501-590-6026 (c) | lbcoop**At_Symbol_Here**ualr.edu >
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