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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:18:05 -0600
Reply-To: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
Sender: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Wendy Campbell <wendycampbell**At_Symbol_Here**BOISESTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Perchloric Acid Fume Hood Decommissioning
In-Reply-To: <F5D83326DC77FD4EA138E9194D6B288833552F2C59**At_Symbol_Here**DSMAILBOX.ad.uiuc.edu>
Ni Nick,
You've just hit the nail straight on - at this moment there's no evidence
for or against perchlorate contamination, so I'm taking the conservative
route and assuming that at some point, unbeknownst to everyone else, someon
e
fumed perchloric in the hood. I'm not willing to rely on memories, so we'r
e
approaching this as if it is the most perchlorate-contaminated system ever,
until proven otherwise.
I'm coordinating with our emergency response teams, and meeting with the
project director and contractors on Monday, armed with war stories and a
variety of publications. I'm hoping that I can impress the potential
seriousness of the situation on the contractors, and figure out whether to
proceed with them, or to move to someone with high-haz capabilities.
When it's all over, I may write up a short something on how it went!
Wendy
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Tsiakals, Nicholas John <
tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**illinois.edu> wrote:
> Wendy, if you can share, what evidence do you have of perchlorate
> contamination?
>
>
>
> Also, have you considered contracting the service - either high haz
> evaluation or full high haz removal? Perchlorate-contaminated ductwork
> presents a number of tough problems - such as removing portions of a du
ct
> run without introducing friction or vibration to a contaminated site. Th
e
> approach needs to guard against metal perchlorates built-up at duct joint
s,
> at individual screws, etc. I believe there are heat-imaging field device
s
> that help visualize pre-detonation reaction - but that=92s my fuzzy mem
ory on
> that. This gets very expensive - perhaps the largest problem is proper
ly
> identifying work that should not proceed without the highly skilled help
> (and corresponding price tag).
>
>
>
> In concept, every lab hood system can be considered
> perchlorate-contaminated, albeit at differing confidence levels. What I
> mean to say is that you frankly don=92t know if some researcher ran heate
d
> perchloric up the hood a decade or two or three back, regardless of that
> hood bearing the label =93perchloric hood=94. Servicing any lab hood sys
tem in
> a chemical lab building should not be done lightly. To an appreciable
> extent, you have residual risks you don=92t get to fully eliminate in the
duct
> systems. But the more robustly you can build a case for the high haz pri
ce
> tag, the more likely purse strings will loosen for you in a given case.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> -Nick
>
> *___________________________________*
>
> *Nicholas J. Tsiakals*
>
> Division of Research Safety
>
> Chemical Safety Section
>
> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>
> (217) 244 - 0682
>
> www.drs.illinois.edu
>
>
>
> "If we don't train students in risk management and safety procedures, the
n
> we're not training them for employment in modern industry. If we want
> someone to turn up in a job and be productive, they can't do that if they
're
> not safety aware."
>
> -- Prof. Thomas Welton, Head, Department of Chemistry, Imperial Colle
ge
> London --
>
>
>
> *From:* DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] *On Behalf
> Of *Ernest Lippert
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 15, 2010 5:09 PM
> *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [DCHAS-L] Perchloric Acid Fume Hood Decommissioning
>
>
>
> Wendy,
>
> We moved several perchloric acid hoods some years ago without incident. T
he
> city fire department was quite willing to standby at the scene. Wash down
> with plenty of water from the top down. Perchlorates like to build up at
> bends so go slow and wash well, particularly the fans. Don't rely on the
> old-timers, the hoods were used with perchloric acid.
>
> Take care,
>
> Ernie Lippert
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Wendy Campbell <
> wendycampbell**At_Symbol_Here**boisestate.edu> wrote:
>
> We are in the process of remodeling a building, which currently houses an
> old perchloric acid fume hood. I'm still tracking down how old it is, bu
t
> I'm fairly sure it's at least 30 years of age. As part of the remodel, t
he
> perc hood is to be removed. There are several issues here.
>
> 1. No one remembers any hot perchloric acid work ever being performed in
> this hood (I'm still tracking down the recently retired folks to see what
> they know), and it has been either sealed shut or used as a regular chemi
cal
> fume hood over the past 10-15 years. I'm not sure whether trusting in
> people's memories over the course of the hood's life is the best policy.
>
> 2. The duct system is plumbed above the bench of the hood so that it
> washes a six foot run of ducting and the hood itself. The plumbing does
NOT
> extend any farther up the duct system, nor out onto the roof where it ven
ts,
> which leads us to.........
>
> 3. The duct takes a turn approximately two feet above where it emerges
> from the roof, and has approximately 3-4 feet of vertical run to the blow
er
> assembly.
>
> The plan under consideration at the moment is to start on the roof and
> check each section for the presence of perchlorates, then spray the heck
out
> of it with water before removing just that section.
>
> I'm hoping for some feedback regarding other people's experiences,
> suggestions for procedure / materials, and anything else the combined wis
dom
> of these fine groups can give us to perform this remodel safely and in a
> timely fashion. I know the contractors would like to start within the ne
xt
> couple of weeks.
>
> Pictures of the rooftop portion of the hood's exhaust system have been
> posted to the AIHAH and Hazmat group sites on Yahoo, but I'm still workin
g
> on how to share my Flickr account with folks - perhaps just contacting me
> off-list?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Wendy
>
> --
> Wendy Campbell, ASP
> Occupational Health and Safety Officer
> Environmental Health and Safety
> Boise State University
> 1910 University Drive
> Boise, Idaho 83725-1826
> Office: (208) 426-3303
> Fax: (208) 426-3343
>
>
>
--
Wendy Campbell, ASP
Occupational Health and Safety Officer
Environmental Health and Safety
Boise State University
1910 University Drive
Boise, Idaho 83725-1826
Office: (208) 426-3303
Fax: (208) 426-3343
Ni Nick,
You've just hit the nail straight on - at this moment t
here's no evidence for or against perchlorate contamination, so I'm
taking the conservative route and assuming that at some point, unbeknownst
to everyone else, someone fumed perchloric in the hood.=A0 I'm not wil
ling to rely on memories, so we're approaching this as if it is the mos
t perchlorate-contaminated system ever, until proven otherwise.=A0
I'm coordinating with our emergency response teams, and meeting wit
h the project director and contractors on Monday, armed with war stories an
d a variety of publications.=A0 I'm hoping that I can impress the poten
tial seriousness of the situation on the contractors, and figure out whethe
r to proceed with them, or to move to someone with high-haz capabilities.
=A0
When it's all over, I may write up a short something on how it went
!
Wendy
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:
54 AM, Tsiakals, Nicholas John
<tsiakals**At_Symbol_Here**illinois.edu> wrote:
Wendy, if you can share, what evidence do you have of
perchlorate contamination?
=A0
Also, have you considered contracting the service - either
high haz evaluation or full high haz removal?=A0 Perchlorate-contaminated d
uctwork
presents a number of tough problems - such as removing portions of a duct
run without introducing friction or vibration to a contaminated site.=A0 Th
e
approach needs to guard against metal perchlorates built-up at duct joints,
at
individual screws, etc.=A0 I believe there are heat-imaging field devices
that help visualize pre-detonation reaction - but that=92s my fuzzy
memory on that.=A0 This gets very expensive - perhaps the largest
problem is properly identifying work that should not proceed without the hi
ghly
skilled help (and corresponding price tag).=A0
=A0
In concept, every lab hood system can be considered
perchlorate-contaminated, albeit at differing confidence levels.=A0 What I
mean to say is that you frankly don=92t know if some researcher ran heated
perchloric up the hood a decade or two or three back, regardless of that ho
od bearing
the label =93perchloric hood=94.=A0 Servicing any lab hood system in
a chemical lab building should not be done lightly.=A0 To an appreciable
extent, you have residual risks you don=92t get to fully eliminate in the
duct systems.=A0 But the more robustly you can build a case for the high ha
z
price tag, the more likely purse strings will loosen for you in a given cas
e.
=A0
Hope this helps,
-Nick
___________________________________
Nicholas J.=A0Tsiakals
Division of Research Safety
Chemical Safety Section
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
(217)
244 - 0682
www.drs.illinois.edu
=A0
"If we don't train students in risk management and safety
procedures, then we're not training them for employment in modern
industry.=A0 If we want someone to turn up in a job and be productive, they
can't do that if they're not safety aware."=A0
=A0=A0=A0 -- Prof. Thomas Welton, Head, Department of
Chemistry, Imperial College London --
=A0
=A0
We moved several perchloric acid hoods some years ag
o
without incident. The city fire department was quite willing to standby at
the
scene. Wash down with plenty of water from the top down. Perchlorates like
to
build up at bends so go slow and wash well, particularly the fans. =A0Don&#
39;t
rely on the old-timers, the hoods were used with perchloric acid.
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Wendy Campbell <
wendycamp
bell**At_Symbol_Here**boisestate.edu>
wrote:
We are in the process
of
remodeling a building, which currently houses an old perchloric acid fume
hood.=A0 I'm still tracking down how old it is, but I'm fairly sure
it's at
least 30 years of age.=A0 As part of the remodel, the perc hood is to be re
moved.=A0
There are several issues here.=A0
1.=A0 No one remembers any hot perchloric acid work ever being performed in
this hood (I'm still tracking down the recently retired folks to see wh
at they
know), and it has been either sealed shut or used as a regular chemical fum
e
hood over the past 10-15 years.=A0 I'm not sure whether trusting in peo
ple's
memories over the course of the hood's life is the best policy.
2.=A0 The duct system is plumbed above the bench of the hood so that it
washes a six foot run of ducting and the hood itself.=A0 The plumbing does
NOT extend any farther up the duct system, nor out onto the roof where it
vents, which leads us to.........
3.=A0 The duct takes a turn approximately two feet above where it emerges
from the roof, and has approximately 3-4 feet of vertical run to the blower
assembly.=A0
The plan under consideration at the moment is to start on the roof and chec
k
each section for the presence of perchlorates, then spray the heck out of i
t
with water before removing just that section.=A0
I'm hoping for some feedback regarding other people's experiences,
suggestions
for procedure / materials, and anything else the combined wisdom of these f
ine
groups can give us to perform this remodel safely and in a timely
fashion.=A0 I know the contractors would like to start within the next
couple of weeks.=A0
Pictures of the rooftop portion of the hood's exhaust system have been
posted
to the AIHAH and Hazmat group sites on Yahoo, but I'm still working on
how to
share my Flickr account with folks - perhaps just contacting me off-list?
Thanks in advance,
Wendy
--
Wendy Campbell, ASP
Occupational Health and Safety Officer
Environmental Health and Safety
Boise State University
1910 University Drive
Boise, Idaho 83725-1826
Office: (208) 426-3303
Fax: =A0(208) 426-3343
=A0
--
Wendy Campbell, ASP
Occupational Health and Safety Officer
Environmental Health and Safety <
br>Boise State University
1910 University Drive
Boise, Idaho 83725-18
26
Office: (208) 426-3303
Fax: =A0(208) 426-3343
--000e0cd1792460262904845dcb73--
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