Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:02:18 -0400
Reply-To: Ernest Lippert <ernielippert**At_Symbol_Here**TOAST.NET>
Sender: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Ernest Lippert <ernielippert**At_Symbol_Here**TOAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Extinguishers
Comments: To: Andrew Gross
In-Reply-To: <2317fc9b0908121502q371d6d85t2763659896b4c5ea**At_Symbol_Here**mail.gmail.com>

A purple K for phosphorus? But purple or silvery, you don't keep K under water. As is often the case, the fire department probably knows enough to be dangerous! For students, professionals, and public safety responders: Plan, Communicate, Practice, Discuss (a lot of "What-If" scenarios), Evaluate, Committ -- the acronym BCPDEC doesn't say much but the idea is clear. Regards, Ernie Lippert On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gross wrote: > I can not agree more. I wrote almost an identical email, but I > decided to wait 24 hours to let my anger at the suggestion die down to > make sure I wasn't coming on strong. Here is what I wrote yesterday: > > I have to strongly disagree with your live burn training. As a > firefighter, I am trained to recognize and understand the difference > between a Class A through D fire. What you are describing would be a > Class A fire, which for cost reasons, would most likely be put out > with a Class A extinguisher/Water Can. The students would know how to > put out a class A combustible fire sure, but that is the furthest > thing from a threat in a laboratory. > > In a lab you have to worry about the class B (oil based) and class D > (misc/exotic) fires. Even if the student is educated in which > extinguisher to grab, attacking a Class B or D fire in the same tactic > that you would attack a class A fire would most definitely be > catastrophic, only to encourage the spread of the involved material. > > What students need to be taught is fire prevention and the basics and > have them constantly reinforced. First, never panic, stop drop and > roll in fire, know your exits and stay low during evacuation as well > as use of a fire blanket. We don't need heros in the laboratory, we > need prudent, safe workers. Leave the hero game to trained > professionals or someone will get hurt. > > Perhaps the FD removed the cans for a reason. A class A extinguisher > has no place in a lab and you are better off with nothing. You need a > combination of A/B/C and B/C cans as well as the proper D can for > whatever is in the lab (ie, purple K for phosphorus) > > To the contrary, I like the "don't panic" training you laid out. If > you would like more consultation on that feel free to ask. > > Sorry to knock your idea in public, but setting a garbage can on fire > and calling it training is just asking for a funeral when a chem fire > erupts and some dope thinks its the same attack. > > Drew > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:31 AM, List Moderator wrote: > > From: rj**At_Symbol_Here**strem.com > > Subject: RE: [DCHAS-L] Extinguishers > > Date: August 12, 2009 10:03:56 AM EDT > > > > There are a lot of different regulations that we all have to abide by, > > and they can be very confusing as to which ones to follow. Being a > > firefighter, I can tell you that Debbie is correct when it comes to Fire > > Code. Your local/state fire marshal's office decides the regulations, > > but that does not mean if you have fire extinguishers present to ignore > > OSHA regulations. > > > >> From a firefighter's standpoint, when it comes to fires in a lab, we > > > > never like to see anyone try to extinguish a fire. The reasoning for > > this is, the student/employee does not have on the correct PPE on to try > > to fight a fire. Working with chemicals we know that a fire can get out > > of control very quickly, and we don't want anyone getting caught in a > > situation like that without firefighter experience, proper training, or > > correct PPE. > > > > After that being said fire extinguishers still belong in the lab. The > > main propose of a fire extinguisher is for defensive use. Meaning, if > > there was a fire that blocked the exits of a room, a fire extinguisher > > should be available to use to assure the safe exit of everyone from the > > room/building. So, I completely disagree with the removal of the fire > > extinguishers from the facility, your lab needs to have training at > > least once a year, and ask the fire department for help with the > > training. Fire extinguishers are a life safety tool and they should be > > present! > > > > You should also check with your local fire department to see if the > > community has adopted National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) > > standards. If they have adopted them then you would want to get NFPA 10 > > Standard for Portable Fire Extinguishers. > > > > Best regards, > > > > R.J. Wolcik > > > > Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain > > confidential or legally privileged information that is intended only for > > the individual or entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the > > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > > copying, distribution, or reliance upon the contents of this e-mail is > > strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in > > error, please reply to the sender, so that Strem Chemicals Inc. can > > arrange for proper delivery, and then please delete the message from > > your Inbox. Thank you. > > > >

A purple K for phosphorus? But purple or silvery, you don't keep K under water. As is often the case, the fire department probably knows enou gh to be dangerous!
=A0
For students, professionals, and public safety responders: Plan, Commu nicate, Practice, Discuss (a lot of "What-If" scenarios), Evaluat e, Committ -- the acronym BCPDEC doesn't say much but the idea is clear .
=A0
Regards,
Ernie Lippert

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gross <gross.drew**At_Symbol_Here**gmai l.com> wrote:
I can not agree more. =A0I wrote almost an identical email, but I
decided to wait 24 hours to let my ang er at the suggestion die down to
make sure I wasn't coming on strong. =A0Here is what I wrote yesterday:

I have to strongly disagree with your live burn training. =A0As afirefighter, I am trained to recognize and understand the difference
b etween a Class A through D fire. =A0What you are describing would be a
Class A fire, which for cost reasons, would most likely be put out
with a Class A extinguisher/Water Can. =A0The students would know how to
put out a class A combustible fire sure, but that is the furthest
thing from a threat in a laboratory.

In a lab you have to worry about the class B (oil based) and class D
(misc/exotic) fires. =A0Even if the student is educated in which
exting uisher to grab, attacking a Class B or D fire in the same tactic
that yo u would attack a class A fire would most definitely be
catastrophic, only to encourage the spread of the involved material.

What students need to be taught is fire prevention and the basics and
h ave them constantly reinforced. =A0First, never panic, stop drop and
rol l in fire, know your exits and stay low during evacuation as well
as use of a fire blanket. =A0We don't need heros in the laboratory, we< br>need prudent, safe workers. =A0Leave the hero game to trained
profess ionals or someone will get hurt.

Perhaps the FD removed the cans for a reason. =A0A class A extinguisher
has no place in a lab and you are better off with nothing. =A0You need a
combination of A/B/C and B/C cans as well as the proper D can for
whate ver is in the lab (ie, purple K for phosphorus)

To the contrary, I l ike the "don't panic" training you laid out. =A0If
you would like more consultation on that feel free to ask.

Sorry to knock your idea in public, but setting a garbage can on fire
and calling it training is just asking for a funeral when a chem fire
erupts and so me dope thinks its the same attack.

Drew


On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:31 AM, List Moderator<< a href="mailto:ecgrants**At_Symbol_Here**uvm.edu">ecgrants**At_Symbol_Here**uvm.edu> wrote:
> From: =A0 rj**At_Symbol_Here**strem.com
> Subject: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0RE: [DCHAS-L] Extinguishers
> Date: =A0 August 12, 2009 10:03:56 AM EDT
>
> There are a lot of different regulations that we all have to abide by,
> and they can be very confusing as to which ones to follow. Being a
> firefigh ter, I can tell you that Debbie is correct when it comes to Fire
> Code. =A0Your local/state fire marshal's office decides the regula tions,
> but that does not mean if you have fire extinguishers presen t to ignore
> OSHA regulations.
>
>> From a firefighte r's standpoint, when it comes to fires in a lab, we
>
> never like to see anyone try to extinguish a fire. The reasoni ng for
> this is, the student/employee does not have on the correct P PE on to try
> to fight a fire. Working with chemicals we know that a fire can get out
> of control very quickly, and we don't want anyone getting caught i n a
> situation like that without firefighter experience, proper trai ning, or
> correct PPE.
>
> After that being said fire ex tinguishers still belong in the lab. The
> main propose of a fire extinguisher is for defensive use. Meaning, if< br>> there was a fire that blocked the exits of a room, a fire extinguis her
> should be available to use to assure the safe exit of everyone from the
> room/building. =A0So, I completely disagree with the removal of the fi re
> extinguishers from the facility, your lab needs to have training at
> least once a year, and ask the fire department for help with th e
> training. Fire extinguishers are a life safety tool and they should be
> present!
>
> You should also check with your local fir e department to see if the
> community has adopted National Fire Prot ection Association (NFPA)
> standards. If they have adopted them then you would want to get NFPA 1 0
> Standard for Portable Fire Extinguishers.
>
> Best re gards,
>
> R.J. Wolcik
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain
> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended only f or
> the individual or entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any discl osure,
> copying, distribution, or reliance upon the contents of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in
> error, please reply to the sender, so that Strem Chemicals Inc. can
> arrange for proper delivery, and then please delete the message from> your Inbox. Thank you.
>


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